I am responding here to something someone said on Facebook for two reasons. One, I do not think it should go unchallenged and two, I do not believe that Facebook is the place to have this discussion. I will be sending a link to the person in question, in order to give her a chance to respond.
In response to someone’s comment, she said about her opposition to gay marriage that, “It's just what I believe. Neither having to do with my religion or my political party.” I asked her why, then, did she oppose it. Her answer follows:
“Deja, if I examine that very very very hard, I eventually turn back to my upbringing and my families beliefs (which are based on religion and politics).
For me, it's in my heart. It's my inner voice, that right/wrong thing that I've tried to avoid listening too much of my life. The older I get, the more I understand that certain things are not good for anyone.
You know me. You know that I don't hate and that some of the things that I believe are contradictory to my own actions on occasions.
If you don't believe in the bible, do you still follow those basic 10 commandments? I like to believe most people really do regardless of their religious views. So if you do, and you aren't religious, how do you explain your belief system to others?”
For me, it's in my heart. It's my inner voice, that right/wrong thing that I've tried to avoid listening too much of my life. The older I get, the more I understand that certain things are not good for anyone.
You know me. You know that I don't hate and that some of the things that I believe are contradictory to my own actions on occasions.
If you don't believe in the bible, do you still follow those basic 10 commandments? I like to believe most people really do regardless of their religious views. So if you do, and you aren't religious, how do you explain your belief system to others?”
The first thought that comes to my mind is that it seems that her opposition is a product of politics and religion, even if someone else’s.
The second thought is a response to the last paragraph. I do not believe that the bible is 100% correct. I believe, in fact, that it cannot be 100% correct but I do follow a number of the ten commandments. Since I am not Christian (indeed, I’m not a monotheist at all), I break commandments one through four just by my beliefs. I do follow the one to honor your parents, but I care a great deal for them and owe them a great deal; I know there are others who do not have such wonderful parents and I firmly believe in breaking off toxic relationships, regardless of who that relationship is with. Breaking those commandments, however, has little impact on a large scale, so let’s take a look at the rest of them. I will be paraphrasing.
Commandment number six is the biggie: Don’t kill anyone. Concrete reasons; you hurt others and you hurt yourself. You remove from this world a family member, someone who does or will contribute to society and change yourself irrevocably.
Next is no cheating on your spouse, or with someone else’s spouse. Concrete reasons; again you are hurting others and, perhaps, yourself. If it goes on long enough it will impact the other relationships, even if the cuckolded spouses do not know of the affairs. There is the possibility for a break up of the marriage, which will in turn affect any children involved. I would, however, like to add two notes to this one. First, it is not detrimental if you have permission and all parties involved are open and okay with it, and have the option to discuss issues that may arise. And two, adultery should not be against the law. You cannot legislate morality.
Which brings us to no stealing. When you steal you deprive someone of needed resources. You lower trust in the community and that can lead to all sorts of problems. False accusations (another issue we’ll get into in a minute), tensions that can cause larger problems, money wasted on investigations and, possibly, false arrests.
No making false accusations. This can ruin people’s lives. Someone arrested and falsely convicted has that stain on their record the rest of their lives, and no one will believe that he’s innocent. And just the accusation of some crimes—child molestation, for instance—can destroy a person’s career and family.
No coveting. By coveting, I imagine the bible means an obsessive desire, not just saying, “Wow, Bob’s car is nice, I’d love to have one like it,” and forgetting about it. Obsession leads to problems if the person obsessing forgets about everything else, or hurts people in order to get what he’s obsessing over. And there’s a whole other level of issues if the object coveted is another person.
So there we have it, concrete reasons why the major commandments—the ones around which laws are based—should be followed. Try as I might, I can’t find one that covers homosexuality, itself, much less gay marriage. If someone has one or more, I would love to hear them. As I’ve said before, I am interested in a respectful exchange of ideas. I cannot grow and learn if I never hear opposing viewpoints.
"You cannot legislate morality." Agreed.
ReplyDeleteIt boils down to perspective, in my opinion. Show me a moral/ethical belief you label "wrong," and I will show you a culture who okays it. It's relative to the individual and/or their family, culture, traditions, etc. Who feels they have the power to say, with no uncertainty, that they are the absolute in knowing what is moral and what isn't? Most religions have a clause along the lines of "thou shalt not judge." Judgement is up to the higher power to enforce, not those of us on this realm of existence. My background is a strict Christian sect, so this next sentences applies to the Christian faith. Jesus wanted us to love one another. He spent his time with lepers, prostitutes, the disabled, the poor, the dregs of society. He gave them hope for a peaceful, equitable coexistence with the other cultures on earth. In my opinion, peaceful and equitable are the integral words.
First, Thank you for allowing a civilized conversation about issues both of us are very passionate for. Also, thank you for allowing the opportunity to comment on your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI struggle with my reasons on why each day. In the end I come back to religion and how I was raised. While no one can disagree with any of the statements you have made there are scientific and logical reasons behind many of the facts that do not support a "benefit" to society.
I believe the basis for marriage in the first place was not really for love at all. The basis for marriage was procreation. While gays and lesbians may have children in artificial means, there are studies shown that credit both a male and female figure involved in a childs life make a more rounded and well adjusted being able to function in normal society. There is a lack of studies to argue this, so I concede evidence to the contrary. (continued)
I also want to say that an argument for the rights to financial benefits is not enough for me to acknowledge. As a single parent living in a committed relationship, I don't have the ability to benefit from my spouse's medical, dental or retirement. When it comes to making decisions for him, I can not. But, if we decided we wanted those rights, we need but go to a lawyer, draw up a will and beneficiary and living will and voila.. I now have most of those rights afforded to me. Which any set of people may do at any time.
ReplyDeleteIf the argument for gay marriage is that you want to be recognized - well, you aren't 'not' recognized now. Society on the whole, even though we do not like it, have allowed it to take place.. and it is. And no one is knocking down doors and hauling you off to prison even though in many states it is illegal to do many acts that are involved in a sexual relationship between gays (men in particular).
If gay marriage is allowed for the sake of love alone, then eventually groups of people may claim they are all in love and wish to be married (polygamy), or a brother and sister may claim to be in love and wish to have those same rights. What about a father in love with his daughter? He may wish to marry her. Is that ok too? I know some of that sounds ridiculous. But who's to say it won't be in the future?
As well, marriage was until recently a religious event. It was deemed by the state at some point that it was not. Most marriages still require religious figures to perform. Government figures (justice of the peace) can also marry which takes out the religious figure but is still a ritual based on religion. If we want a separation of church and state, then why a religious ceremony? If it's for the 'sake of love alone' then why a ceremony in the first place? People live every day in hetero relationships unmarried. Then, if it's back to financial aspects... again not a good enough argument since you can now get the same documents in place as I am able as stated above.
In the end, again, I come back to my own version of right from wrong, my religion, my political views and the way I was raised, imposed upon me or not. As an adult, I'm now making the choice that I don't agree. I've had ample amounts of people of faith and of non-faith around me all my life. I'm open minded and listen to everyone's views and respect their choices even if I don't agree. I've watched in the last 20 years the destruction of the family unit, the education of our youth, respect, morals and values, all decline. Not necessarily associated with gays and lesbians, I add, but to the general acceptance of many things in the world and the choices all families are making. Can you say to me that if this is accepted, that it can and will improve our society? Will it bring our families closer? Will it curb the disrespect of our youth? Will it improve our countries financial outcome? Will it encourage peace and unity? I don't think anyone can say that. If you could state in certainty that all that would improve, I may reconsider my beliefs.
Again, Thank you.
Yes, children benefit from both male and female role models. Does that mean we should make single parenting illegal? And as far as procreation being the reason for marriage, there are two problems with that. One, it is not that way any more. And two, should we not allow infertile couples to marry? What about women past the age of menopause, or couples who just don’t want kids? As a single parent living in a committed relationship, no, you do not have all the benefits of marriage, though I imagine most employers would deny you rights to each others health care coverage. And, while you could go to a lawyer to get most of a married couple’s rights, you at least have the option of marriage and all of the rights contained therein. (continued)
ReplyDeleteYou talk about the decline of morals and values, but who are you to judge that? Morality is subjective, I don’t care what anyone says. Homosexuality is immoral to you, yet not to me. Polygamy is immoral to you, but not to someone else. There were societies in which homosexuality was expected, if not encouraged. I have said it before and will say it again, using the bible as an argument against it is disingenuous, unless you avoid shellfish, working on Sundays and wearing clothes of different weaves, among all of the other instructions it contains. I think that accepting gay marriage will improve our society. It will protect a population that, until now, has had fewer rights than others. Will it curb the disrespect of our youth? One has nothing to do with the other. One of the most disrespectful little punks it has been my misfortune to know was raised by a heterosexual couple. Will it improve our country’s financial situation? How much money do weddings generate? How many people will be benefited by more couples wanting flowers, caterers, photographers? Will it bring families closer? With this ruling, if Kit were to want to marry a woman, Brian could walk her down the aisle. So, yes, I think it would. Will it encourage peace and unity? Perhaps not but denying gays the same rights hasn’t engendered that. I cannot state with certainty that it will make things better, because there is no way of knowing. Can you state with absolute certainty that all that would be worse if we allow gays to marry? But while there is a whole segment of the population that is being treated as second-class citizens, we cannot say that this is a fair and equitable society. The Supreme Court decided a long time ago that separate cannot not mean equal. It didn’t for blacks then, and it doesn’t for homosexuals now.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, though, none of these arguments matter. Your belief that it is wrong is as difficult to change as my belief that it is not. I do not want to tell you that you have to feel the same way I do, because you don’t. I just want my gay and lesbian friends to have the same protections under the law.
"Can you say to me that if this is accepted, that it can and will improve our society? Will it bring our families closer? Will it curb the disrespect of our youth? Will it improve our countries financial outcome? Will it encourage peace and unity? I don't think anyone can say that. If you could state in certainty that all that would improve, I may reconsider my beliefs."
ReplyDeleteI guess I would have to ask, why would you put the burden of "fixing" society onto homosexual marriage? If heterosexual marriage hasn't "fixed" society, why would you feel it is up to homosexual marriage to do so?